Under-Performing Seal

Da: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6731

Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser).

October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine: Under-Performing Seal

The RMS problem of the Porsche 996

Loren	Oct 14 2005, 12:08 PM Post #1
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser). Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 911 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this. You can download the PDF version of the article here: Under_performing_seal.pdf ( 913.03k ) Number of downloads: 778 -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

FORMULA	Oct 18 2005, 07:57 AM Post #2
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 32 Joined: 22-September 04 From: NEW YORK CITY Member No.: 3,046	Hi Loren: Cannot download. Can you PM the article to me?. thanks Mark This post has been edited by FORMULA: Oct 18 2005, 07:57 AM

Loren	Oct 18 2005, 09:22 AM Post #3
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	Yeah, I think there is an new IE bug with Acrobat. Seems after Microsoft's latest security update it won't let you view it in the browser. I normally use Firefox so I didn't notice it until now. It should work if you save it to disk first though. -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

JimPDX	Oct 18 2005, 04:07 PM Post #4
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 213 Joined: 26-November 04 Member No.: 3,706	QUOTE(FORMULA @ Oct 18 2005, 08:57 AM) Hi Loren: Cannot download. Can you PM the article to me?. thanks Mark You might want to try and save it to a directory first. Then open Adobe. With Adobe up on your screen go to file open and pull it up from the saved directory. It worked for me. BTW Thx Loren for the reprint. I think it places the issue in perspective reasonably well.

cyclocross	Nov 2 2005, 11:59 AM Post #5
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 45 Joined: 1-July 04 From: Lamorinda, CA Member No.: 2,300	QUOTE(Loren @ Oct 14 2005, 12:08 PM) Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser). Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 991 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this. You can download the PDF version of the article here: Under performing seal - Total 911 Magazine - October 2005 Hi, Loren. Thank you for sharing the article. There is a major typo on page three: "The crankshaft, a two-piece affair, could also be split, re-aligned and bolted together with stronger bolts." Does the Mr. White really mean the crankcases or the crankshaft saddle? In Paul Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" the author states that the 3.6 L motors from 2002 on have thicker main journals giving a more rigid crankshaft. Also, the gear box has an additional input shaft bearing next to the clutch to control vibrations. Is there any data that suggests the 2002 and newer models are less prone to RMS leaks? -------------------- Dan, 2002 C2 Black/Tan

umn	Nov 3 2005, 02:32 PM Post #6
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 130 Joined: 26-October 03 From: UK Member No.: 338	QUOTE(cyclocross @ Nov 2 2005, 11:59 AM) ... In Paul Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" the author states that the 3.6 L motors from 2002 on have thicker main journals giving a more rigid crankshaft. Also, the gear box has an additional input shaft bearing next to the clutch to control vibrations. Is there any data that suggests the 2002 and newer models are less prone to RMS leaks? ... There is obviously no publicly available data on it, but if you talk to the guys at the factory, this seem to be the case. Particularly the third input shaft bearing has helped. The 997 crankcase has an additional crankshaft bearing, which again seems to have improved things. And the new Aisin gearboxes have also been designed with the problem in mind. However, all of these measures only incrementally alleviate the problem, none of them seem to have really nailed it. Cheers Uwe

rattles	Nov 7 2005, 08:45 PM Post #7
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-February 04 From: Sydney Australia Member No.: 1,098	QUOTE(Loren @ Oct 19 2005, 06:22 AM) Yeah, I think there is an new IE bug with Acrobat. Seems after Microsoft's latest security update it won't let you view it in the browser. I normally use Firefox so I didn't notice it until now. It should work if you save it to disk first though. Loren, I am having problems opening it too. If I click on the link it takes me straight to a forum page which says I dont have permission to view the article. Also I notice the skin has changed since you did your software upgrade and the link to change the skin is no longer active

Loren	Nov 7 2005, 09:11 PM Post #8
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	Okay folks, sorry... should be working now. -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

rattles	Nov 7 2005, 10:44 PM Post #9
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-February 04 From: Sydney Australia Member No.: 1,098	QUOTE(Loren @ Nov 8 2005, 06:11 PM) Okay folks, sorry... should be working now. Thanks, recd. OK now. Will the skin selector be up and running again soon

Loren	Nov 8 2005, 07:13 AM Post #10
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	QUOTE Will the skin selector be up and running again soon I hope so. That is covered in My Blog -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

alexsee	Dec 9 2005, 08:36 AM Post #11
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 9 Joined: 20-July 04 Member No.: 2,426	does new RMS resolve leak problem?? part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems?

bob_911	Jan 6 2006, 03:08 PM Post #12
Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,571	QUOTE(alexsee @ Dec 9 2005, 08:36 AM) does new RMS resolve leak problem?? part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems? Guten Tag, i was surfin a bit in the internet to find some international information about the underperforming rear main seal, which i know as "undichter Kurbelwellen-Dichtring" or mostly called "Simmering" issue. I own a 996 built in March 1999 about 100.000 kilometers. I have the fifth rear main seal. The last one is the "new Super-Duper Wellendichtring" from Cayenne. I have got it built in 4 weeks ago by my Porsche-Dealer. and the car is leaking again!!! The problem isnt solved, beleave me. --bob

Scouser	Jan 16 2006, 03:17 PM Post #13
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 412 Joined: 22-July 03 From: Liverpool, England Member No.: 137	Sheesh! Believe it or not I only just got to know about this. I just heard about it on rennlist. Show you just how long I have been out of the loop. -------------------- Berny, Liverpool, UK. Capital of Culture 2008 _____________________

mystic996	Jan 17 2006, 12:41 PM Post #14
Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 13-January 06 Member No.: 8,703	QUOTE(bob_911 @ Jan 6 2006, 03:08 PM) QUOTE(alexsee @ Dec 9 2005, 08:36 AM) does new RMS resolve leak problem?? part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems? Guten Tag, i was surfin a bit in the internet to find some international information about the underperforming rear main seal, which i know as "undichter Kurbelwellen-Dichtring" or mostly called "Simmering" issue. I own a 996 built in March 1999 about 100.000 kilometers. I have the fifth rear main seal. The last one is the "new Super-Duper Wellendichtring" from Cayenne. I have got it built in 4 weeks ago by my Porsche-Dealer. and the car is leaking again!!! The problem isnt solved, beleave me. --bob

mystic996	Jan 17 2006, 12:56 PM Post #15
Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 13-January 06 Member No.: 8,703	O.K. I have a 99 C2 w 72K miles. The dealer pointed out the leak between the Engine and trans. "might be RMS".. Ya think so? Here is my question. If I plan on doing a new clutch within 15K miles, am I in danger of damaging anything if I wait? I read hear about people who go through 3 or 4 RMS's but I am not seeing anyone telling what the ramifications are of letting this slide. What if you never replace it? What will happen? Is part of this owners not being able to handle the thought of spending $$$ on their cars and seeing oil on the garage floor?

Scouser	Jan 17 2006, 03:43 PM Post #16
Contributing Member Group: Contributing Members Posts: 412 Joined: 22-July 03 From: Liverpool, England Member No.: 137	No problems. You can let it leak forever without damage. Even in the most extreme rare case (and I don;t know if this has ever happened) that the seal fell out, it won;t blow your engine up. The seal is not like a plug. It doesn't hold the oil in per se, it just stops it weeping out the end of the block thru the main bearing. If it gell out its possible to get a lot of oil on your clutch and it would probably drip on your exhaust and cause a lot of smoke. But no catastrophic engine failure. I drove around for thousands of miles between RMS fixes. In fact I had my 1st RMS done at 27k and my car has now done 52k and only just stopped leaking......I have been driving around leaking for years. So hang in there until the clutch is done. -------------------- Berny, Liverpool, UK. Capital of Culture 2008 _____________________

Loren	Jan 17 2006, 04:23 PM Post #17
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	Could be the intermediate shaft seal too... -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

D3DED	Jan 18 2006, 08:39 AM Post #18
Member Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,767	QUOTE(Loren @ Oct 14 2005, 12:08 PM) Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser). Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 911 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this. You can download the PDF version of the article here: Under_performing_seal.pdf ( 913.03k ) Number of downloads: 778 Hi fellas, My mid life crisis just started leaking, 50k on a '99, No warranty but full OPC history. Am i being unrealistic expecting porsche to replace the seal and bear the cost? D3DED

Loren	Jan 18 2006, 09:01 AM Post #19
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	IMHO... it will depend on your history. Number of previous RMS failures and/or related problems. -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

Tool Pants	Jan 20 2006, 12:56 AM Post #20
Boxsternaut Group: Moderators Posts: 2,976 Joined: 19-June 03 From: San Jose Member No.: 4	Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0&#entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back.

bob_911	Jan 23 2006, 02:21 PM Post #21
Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,571	QUOTE(Tool Pants @ Jan 20 2006, 12:56 AM) Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0&#entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back. Hello again, the new seal is leaking, i told you already a few days ago. my 996 has about 100.000 km or 62.000 miles and is from 1999. No warrenty or updated warrenty. But i have a full Porsche service history. The news: Offer from Porsche: kompletely new machine for 50% cost (4500 Dollars) This is very ok. Im looking forward to it. --bob

Loren	Jan 23 2006, 03:12 PM Post #22
Porsche Nut Group: Admin Posts: 5,052 Joined: 18-June 03 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 2	QUOTE(bob_911 @ Jan 23 2006, 02:21 PM) QUOTE(Tool Pants @ Jan 20 2006, 12:56 AM) Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0&#entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back. Hello again, the new seal is leaking, i told you already a few days ago. my 996 has about 100.000 km or 62.000 miles and is from 1999. No warrenty or updated warrenty. But i have a full Porsche service history. The news: Offer from Porsche: kompletely new machine for 50% cost (4500 Dollars) This is very ok. Im looking forward to it. --bob So, you are getting a new/exchange engine for half the cost? Sounds like a very good deal to me. -------------------- Loren RennTech.org PCA member since 1978 My Mods in the Garage · My Blog

boxstermao	Feb 26 2006, 01:19 AM Post #23
Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 10-February 06 Member No.: 9,165	hello, ive been eyeing a 99C4 coupe with only 13,000kms on it. what consequences does the RMS have on a tiptronic tranny?